Joined: Sat Dec 10 2005, 04:28PM
Location: United States
Posts: 4954
LOL
Yeah I know what you mean. I certainly don't want to try to dig my metalurgy education out of this brain. . . . It's probably sand by now. Haven't used that stuff in 30 years. But what do us EE's know.
Sorry guys, I was not picking on anyone. I was trying to keep it at a level all would understand. This is good Shtuff and will come useful at a later date I am sure.
Bill, we were on the chat last night for 2 1/2 hours debating this. I was driving Scott C nuts! But based on what you said, I was leaning towards the 274's. They're in better shape too. Odd about that and it may point to what you were saying in steel grade. The 577's that were in the car, are rusty and the car only sat for two years in a barn. But the F3 I drive sat for 15 years and the T bars are spotless. The Spares I have are out of the same year Fury (318) and sat in a yard on the ground for 8 years. They TOO! are totally rust free. Tends to make me think the steel grade is better on the 274/275 series. Now it makes you wonder what the deal is with the 578/579's. They are thicker, but used in an HD application. Makes you wonder if our therory is hog wash.
I wonder if there is some info somewhere about the torsion bars and how they were made. I know the process, well sorta', but it's baffling. Maybe they used the same grade steel and made them bigger? That would make sense then wouldn't it?
I know where a 70 Fury is and can get the bars easy. Since the sub frame is on the way, I need to get them down here quick. As you can see, I am planning ahead, but speeding ahead of the plans with the project. I get the motor in two weeks. I'll have the sub in by the time the motor is ready. Piece-o-cake as long as I got all the new bushings and washers I need. <span class='smallblacktext'>[ Edited Mon Apr 10 2006, 06:58PM ]</span>
Joined: Tue Oct 11 2005, 01:33AM
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 5893
Hmmm, Strength of materials and metallurgy, that was the class we got to bend, break, stretch and analyse to death, various bits of metal and many slugs of concrete. In my case that was about 1968 and in the intervening 38 years I've happily forgotten all of it.
It could be that all three bar sizes use slightly different grades of steel. I know this is the case with leaf springs as a friend of mine is a knife maker and he's forever going on about differences in leaf springs. He's found everything from real crap to some really high grade stuff in different car and truck springs. What I don't know is how T-bars are made, rolled, forged, etc. I suspect they are probably packaged as matched sets to allow for variances in manufacture. Although I guess slight difference could be adjusted out when you crank them up to get the right body height. As for rust vs no rust, I don't know. Could be that higher carbon steel rusts less, or it could be a function of oil leaks.
Joined: Sun Feb 05 2006, 11:51PM
Location: Pa
Posts: 3064
Here's some B body musclecar data that might cross over to C's on the torsion bars. S15 option code was for Rallye suspension in 69-71, and had heavy-duty T-bars. Beginning in '69 there was an optional "Soft Rate suspension", which gave a smoother ride by using smaller diameter bars. It was code S17. It was cancelled in '71 on the B's. The measurements were: 0.88" - Soft Rate 0.90" - Standard 0.92" - Heavy Duty
Look under "torsion bars" on the broadcast sheet for these codes.
0.90" were standard on "non-muscle" cars ordered with A/C or Trailer-tow package. All the T-bars were made from High-Chrome steel <span class='smallblacktext'>[ Edited Tue Apr 11 2006, 06:56PM ]</span>
Joined: Sat Dec 10 2005, 04:28PM
Location: United States
Posts: 4954
Yeah. . . . Try to make concrete in 1:6 scale. . . OK, my metallurgy goes back to 71. But being a double E, what the heck did I care? I was more concerned about the saturation factors of Aliminum and Copper! LOL Lotsa' Jeouls.
I have to agree with that thought. . . They must have been close to stainless, looking at these bars, Neither set had a spot of rust on them. So we are onto something here.
Bob. . . . You have to remember the B's were lighter and smaller. The roll efficiencey was calculated on the body size. They may be the same lenght, but I can't say I would like to try it.
Once again, Thanks Everyone! This is getting better and better as we go and is starting to make more sense as we go. Maybe we'll do a recap at the end. Steve
Joined: Tue Oct 11 2005, 01:33AM
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 5893
Going back to the original topic of sloppy front end, I think the T-bars are probably the least likely source of slop. High on the list would be lack of a sway bar, radial tires and alignment geometry. Don't forget these cars were designed for bias tires which have a much less flexible sidewall than radials. As such the stock alignment settings must be modified to allow for this. I remember a thread covering this on the old board, it was quite interesting what some of the alignment guys had to say. Maybe someone copied the thread and could re-post it into the tech archive.
I think tire pressure is also a key item to look at. I know with my daily driver that it likes to have a 2 lb differential between front (higher) and rear. When I get it serviced the garage guy usually makes them all the same and the car handles like a cow until I reset the air. Watch any pro car race on TV and most of their handling adjustments are tire pressure and wing adjustments.
Then there is the question of shocks and again the "balance" between the front and rear suspensions.
The lowly T-bar really doesn't do much more than control up and down bouncing and really should not cause slop if the shocks are working properly.
Joined: Sat Dec 10 2005, 04:28PM
Location: United States
Posts: 4954
Yep! The tire pressure is new to me. I can experiment with the Fury while I still have it.
I know what you mean about the Shocks, I am looking at either going the Monroe Gas Magnums or the KYBs. I already have a set of Magnums, I have had good experience with them in the past on Cs.
My issue is with these crappy roads we have. Stitches will tell you there is a stretch of Rt 80, near here, that will jar the hemeroids from Godzilla. I have experienced the steering wheel doing a dance in that section of road. I suspect wheel hop in that case. No matter what, the T bars and good shocks will make the difference in that area, and others. If the roads are realitively smooth, it is not a problem other than typical steering adjustment. But on rougher roads, I need to get rid of that jumping around. The sway is there, so that is covered. All the bushings will be new, and I have located a set of 578-79 T Bars. That and a good set of shocks will make the diff I am sure. But the tire pressure, MMMMM That one, a 2 pound diff, I have to play with that. BTW, the shocks in the Fury are new, but I think they are Gas OEM grade.
Once again Bill, Thanks for the tip. Some of these little tricks I do not know. But I sure know how to put them together the right way. I guess it is dealer brain washing from my mechinic days.
By the way. I was told the T bars I have coming are spotless of rust as well. He said they were pretty grease free. When I have all 3 sets together I will be able to make a better determination of their composition. I expect to have the subframe assembled and maybe back in the car by Monday.
Joined: Sun Feb 05 2006, 11:51PM
Location: Pa
Posts: 3064
The B body musclecar T-bars measure 41 inches long, so you will not experiment with them in a C. I wonder if a steering stabilizer (shock absorber style) from the world of jacked up 4WD trucks would calm things down in an overboosted C body steering system, especially on NJ highways.
Hey Steve, what about rt. 46 Dover "Travelers Diner Bridge" near you?