Joined: Fri Aug 05 2011, 08:06PM
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 132
Uncle Joe - your cam shaft - if you don't want to share the specs, stop trotting out that dynosheet and giving us stick envy lol
In all seriousness - why wont you share? are you part of a race team? can you see yourself selling them in the future? I realize the knowledge is worth some thing as you have no doubt put a bit of time into development, but what will you loose out of sharing?
Maybe you could start a group buy on here and work out to have 20 of them made (possibly via dwaye porter as mentioned)- the cat would be out of the bag on specs then though (any way you sell it the same would happen) - but you will have had some return for your effort
Uncle Joe - your cam shaft - if you don't want to share the specs, stop trotting out that dynosheet and giving us stick envy lol
In all seriousness - why wont you share? are you part of a race team? can you see yourself selling them in the future? I realize the knowledge is worth some thing as you have no doubt put a bit of time into development, but what will you loose out of sharing?
Maybe you could start a group buy on here and work out to have 20 of them made (possibly via dwaye porter as mentioned)- the cat would be out of the bag on specs then though (any way you sell it the same would happen) - but you will have had some return for your effort
One thing to remember here is that what may work in one engine may not in the other even if all the parts are the same. Some tolerances may be different,intakes heads,etc. may flow at different rates,quench may be different,piston tops flow different (domed,flat,recessed,valve shape). Although this may work well in Uncle Joe's engine and i'm sure he's done his homework on this as his numbers probably exceeded his own expectations. This is why i always say to consult a few cam manufactuers about their profiles. I would also like to see the specs on this profile. You can also take this profile and bump the numbers on duration,lift,overlap etc. either up or down to counter a bump in compression or lower,different heads etc. Most people do not understand cams and the profound change they can make and that's one of the reasons 99% of us talk to the cam manufactuers. Even when i was racing NHRA stock class in my 71' 340 Duster i always got cams from Comp and it was their knowledge that my car ran as good as it did. Those specs i did not share with anyone,but a street car is a whole different ball game.
Joined: Thu Mar 01 2007, 09:30PM
Location: Houston
Posts: 1735
I'm not so sure about that. When I've called Comp. or other cam makers, what do I get? I get a 'tech' who is probably making $11/hour. He's been there 6 months, and has never actually worked on a Mopar engine. He pulls out the 'cam guide' - the same one Comp publishes in the catalog that I can read - and cites verse and chapter on what cam I am best needing.
It would be nice if Comp employed Tom Hoover or Ray Barton or Dick Landy to give out cam talk to Mopar owners but they don't.
Joined: Wed Dec 21 2005, 07:34AM
Location: indiana
Posts: 791
I think if Comp claimed to have Dick Landy or Tom Hoover on their tech line it would be quite a thing - both of them have left this life. And I suspect Ray Barton would get very bored answering 99.9% of calls where the questions were already answered in the catalog.
People don't want to research, read and learn anymore, most folks want everything handed to them on a platter - and they'd get angry if they had to wait on hold for 2 min to get it. Angry enough to spend 30 min bitching about it on every webforum they go to. The few people that would appreciate the expertise would get disappointed with the explanation of how the big-bad-cam they want won't work well with the rest of the parts they picked out.
(I'm not talking about you, Greg, but the overall decline in fortitude in modern society).
Joined: Thu Mar 22 2007, 08:13AM
Location: In the workshop
Posts: 1063
Fury Fan wrote ...
People don't want to research, read and learn anymore, most folks want everything handed to them on a platter - and they'd get angry if they had to wait on hold for 2 min to get it. Angry enough to spend 30 min bitching about it on every webforum they go to.
Good post there, Fury Fan.
Linked to it is part of the reason I wont share details of the cam. It took to much time and effort to come up with the profile to give away details for free.
Joined: Thu May 01 2008, 11:15AM
Location: Chicago,IL
Posts: 2868
Uncle Joe wrote ...
Fury Fan wrote ...
People don't want to research, read and learn anymore, most folks want everything handed to them on a platter - and they'd get angry if they had to wait on hold for 2 min to get it. Angry enough to spend 30 min bitching about it on every webforum they go to.
Good post there, Fury Fan.
Linked to it is part of the reason I wont share details of the cam. It took to much time and effort to come up with the profile to give away details for free.
I guess maybe it's the Christian Capitalist in me that has such a problem here - I can't see why 1 of the below isn't true: 1. you've found something and it really works and you could either sell the service or sell the intellectual property for your own benefit 2. you've found something and out of the goodness of your heart you want to help make Mopars faster and so you share it
I guess that leaves 2 other options: 3. it's BS 4. you like the attention of having achieved something that seems unlikely but see no need to profit from it or help your peers
Joined: Thu Mar 22 2007, 08:13AM
Location: In the workshop
Posts: 1063
The capitalist in me says that if the right company offers the right money, then I'll sell the design.
The dyno sheet proves it works, so bs its not.
One more thing, and my final post on this thread. If US cam companies dont stop using technology invented in Fred flintstones day, they will start going downhill fast.
Joined: Wed Dec 21 2005, 07:34AM
Location: indiana
Posts: 791
Furious and Joe, I know both of you guys about as much as a guy could know someone they haven't met IRL. Moreso than casual internet banter, for sure. Both of you have stuff in your house that used to be in my house.
You both have good heads and hearts. And you’re both right.
One thing I’ll say about the cam specs, though, is that if they aren’t held secret, if a cam company catches hold of them, it’s all lost for Uncle Joe. If a guy develops an idea, or adapts an idea in a new direction, and incurs expense or other resources to do so, he has every justification to preserve his IP or sell it as he sees fit.
And one reason it will be hard to sell is visible in this thread – it’s ‘unbelievable’, therefore difficult to get the masses to accept it as real, and the cam companies would recognize this. It would be best-suited for a small company that wants to drive a wedge into the ice and take their place at the big-boys table, but it may be a bet-the-farm move for them.
And patenting and licensing aren’t a route most of us are equipped to follow.
But even if it makes it to market, with internet traffic the way it is, people trash it as hype. Until they experience it themselves, and then they'll be ostracized.
Joined: Thu May 01 2008, 11:15AM
Location: Chicago,IL
Posts: 2868
Yes, those beautiful plaques are hanging in the bedrooms of my kiddos
Big companies buy IP like this all the time in the slow evolution of their product lines to protect against the disruptive small company that would force them to move faster than they want. It's a defensive move sometimes so that they can evolve their product and not disrupt to the point of disbelief.
We've got an example in the cam world actually - the advent of the thumpr and whiplash cams, right? Cams with big slobbery sounding idles that aren't completely soggy down low like a traditional big cam would be. Somebody figured out the event timing to make that happen, and I'm sure it sounded equally unbelievable that you could have a top fuel idle and actually drive on the street with a mild stall converter.
So we know the cam companies are still pouring money into building a better mousetrap.
I agree,cam companies put big money into research and development. I have heard comments on here about why not make a bunch of these cams with this profile and i would buy one.....REALLY? You need to do lots of research on one of these grinds as this will make your car run like a scaled cat or a dog with 3 legs. This so called cam profile is not the silver bullet of cam grinds. Many of my racer friends had cams that you would think would not work,but they did and they kept it a secret to some extent,but they know no matter how you cut it,each engine is built in a different manner.Many classes such as stock and a few others have to rely on a cam with factory duration,overlap,etc. but the lift can be anything you like. F.A.S.T. racing calls for cams such as this but the car must sound stock. These cam companies grind individual cams for these racers and they have no problem ordering 5 or 6 different profiles and they try them all to see what works best,then put the others on the shelf. It costs lots of money to do this and the cam companies really gear it to the racers and thats why if you want to pick one you are better off getting one from the catalog and running it on the street. No disrespect to you Uncle Joe,but it sounds like you done your research and that cam works for your setup and it does put some respectful numbers down,but 95% of the people out there do not understand the art of extracting every possible HP out of an engine and the cam is only a piece of the puzzle when building a race engine. I know guys who have gotten another 40 hp out of an engine just by oiling mods over a stock setup. Windage is a killer of power and some people spend thousands just in this area alone. So my advice still is,do your research and if you still can't find what you are looking for,consult the cam companies and if you do get someone on the line who does not have the time for you,phone back the next day and someone else will probably answer the phone the next day and if not phone another company.